Curse

Jinkies · Aug 03, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Or that he wanted money instead of the title or the drop. You argue like an arrogant asshole, which is hilarious because everyone else knows you're wrong.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...=3856187&pp=25

For anyone who may care, this is just a +1 thread for the OP. The discussion is crap, seriously, because everyone except OP realizes what a mutually beneficial service is. He/she/it/shit's just goading everyone on so OP can buff OP's PC.

How can you claim this to be mutually beneficial? In order for it to be purely mutually benefial te exchange rate would be 1 client key for every 3 provider keys. neither party would make or lose money, statistically. But.... the client would get plenty of drops for his key, and the provider would get 5 points free for every 3 keys he used, in addition he wouldnt have to waste his time selling drops and this would speed his title up immensly.

For that rate it IS mutually benefial because both parties get exactly what they want and it benefits them both for a variety of reasons. At the rate it is now it is NOT mutually benefical.

Zaw · Aug 03, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Alright, say that people magily get your message and realise that they loose like 25% of their money. Say that people do read this post and understand it.

You think it'll stop? No. As i said before, some people do not care about big flashy numbers and spears falling from the sky. Some people like gambling, and some people like capitilazing on the gambling.

I don't know how old you are, but i can tell you that you can look at zchest services and think they are morally wrong, you can also look at casinos and think the same thing. Are casinos outlawed? Nope. Do they do the same thing? Yep, 100 fold.

People know that there is loss involved, yet they still do it. IT'S FUN! (To some people).

moriz · Aug 03, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19

so... you're saying it is not mutually beneficial, because one party is benefited more than the other. however, you've also admits that both parties are benefited in some way....

you sir, needs to understand what "mutually beneficial" means.

Zaw · Aug 03, 2009, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

How can you claim this to be mutually beneficial? In order for it to be purely mutually benefial te exchange rate would be 1 client key for every 3 provider keys. neither party would make or lose money, statistically. But.... the client would get plenty of drops for his key, and the provider would get 5 points free for every 3 keys he used, in addition he wouldnt have to waste his time selling drops and this would speed his title up immensly.

For that rate it IS mutually benefial because both parties get exactly what they want and it benefits them both for a variety of reasons. At the rate it is now it is NOT mutually benefical.

Wrong, 2 times the drop rates, 2 times the points.

superraptors · Aug 03, 2009, 07:22 AM // 07:22

increase creme brulee and firewater drop rate imo

Jinkies · Aug 03, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaw

Alright, say that people magily get your message and realise that they loose like 25% of their money. Say that people do read this post and understand it.

You think it'll stop? No. As i said before, some people do not care about big flashy numbers and spears falling from the sky. Some people like gambling, and some people like capitilazing on the gambling.

I don't know how old you are, but i can tell you that you can look at zchest services and think they are morally wrong, you can also look at casinos and think the same thing. Are casinos outlawed? Nope. Do they do the same thing? Yep, 100 fold.

People know that there is loss involved, yet they still do it. IT'S FUN! (To some people).

So basically you are now sng I'm right.. but think that most people are too stupid to care?

Well I would agree with that, except that despite the fact they disagree with my labeling it a scam, which imo still stands, none of them would ever consider using this service, especially after crunching the numbers. Gambling would be just as fun if not more if the amount they lost was not so extreme. and tbh the posters do not represent the majority of the people in gw, or even the people reading this thread. I know my message has gotten through because of the bulk pms I have recieved thanking me for making this thread. Byteme's invective verbal attacks don't add anything to the thread except a free bump. Maybe he is mad because the Kanaxai in his avatar is the same one sitting in my inventory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

so... you're saying it is not mutually beneficial, because one party is benefited more than the other. however, you've also admits that both parties are benefited in some way....

you sir, needs to understand what "mutually beneficial" means.

Perhaps you sir need to learn what Mutually and Beneficial mean. let me break it down nice and easy.

Mutually - felt by each

Beneficial - advantage, something that has a good effect

what you fail to understand is that the client is not being Benefited because he is eneding up with less than he started with.
with the other exchange rate both parties are being benefited. Though it is still slightly in the providers favor because he cannot lose.. though the client can win and lose and will pretty much just remain where he started also

moriz · Aug 03, 2009, 07:35 AM // 07:35

so let me get this straight: the "client" gives up one key, but gets twice the drops. had the "client" use the key himself, he would only get one drop. two drops, versus one drop, for the same number of keys used. clearly, this is a gain.

the "provider", without spending any additional cash, is now rewarded with 2x points for every one of his keys, instead of just 1x points. 2x points, versus 1x points. clearly, this is a gain.

since we've established that both parties have gained, we can also conclude that both have been benefited. this means that this arrangement is mutually beneficial. qed.

Jinkies · Aug 03, 2009, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaw

Wrong, 2 times the drop rates, 2 times the points.

Wrong, you assume 1 drop = 1x points. If that were the case then people would just open chests normally and not even bother with the service.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

so let me get this straight: the "client" gives up one key, but gets twice the drops. had the "client" use the key himself, he would only get one drop. two drops, versus one drop, for the same number of keys used. clearly, this is a gain.

the "provider", without spending any additional cash, is now rewarded with 2x points for every one of his keys, instead of just 1x points. 2x points, versus 1x points. clearly, this is a gain.

since we've established that both parties have gained, we can also conclude that both have been benefited. this means that this arrangement is mutually beneficial. qed.

Since prices on most items remain relativly constant day by day, though are subject to change over time.. we can assume the current price of a z key is 4k, and that the average value of a chest drop is 1k

thus, the client is rewarded with 2k and no points as opposed to 1k and 4k worth of points, clearly he is not being benefited

meanwhile the provider is rewarded with 8k worth of points, but no 1k worth of drops, clearly he is making, bank, where points are concered off the unluky victom client.

Now if it was 1 client key per 3 provider things would be different:

Client gets 4k instead of 4k with a chance of making more, and an equal chance of making less

Provider gets 20k points instead of 15k points and spending 4k to get another 5 points. But he maxes his z rank sooner because he is not subject to the chance of him losing more than 75% of what he puts in. And does not deal with the time spend to sell all those drops, which btw takes a loooooong time.

now thats what i call mutually beneficial!

Admin Edit: Please stop double posting. You are able to edit your post and add to it.

moriz · Aug 03, 2009, 07:53 AM // 07:53

ah, so you've arbitrarily adding the price of zkeys into the mix.

here's a newsflash for you: the people who will engage as the "client" have no interest in the points, nor the supposed value of the zkeys. otherwise, those people would've either used the keys themselves, or sold them for the gold. the "clients" are interested in getting the drops. this is economically beneficial, because the "clients" would've probably BOUGHT those keys at 4k each, and are getting double the benefits for their investment. clearly, they are not being victimized.

the people who would engage as the "provider" are interested only in the points. they, like the "clients", probably bought those keys at 4k each, and are also gaining double the benefits for their investment. clearly, they are not being victimized either; and judging by how the "clients" are also benefiting, the "providers" are definitely not being abusive.

you've reasoning is only sound only if you completely mistook the motives for engaging in this arrangement in the first place, which you've done so. clearly, you do not understand nor appreciate the fact that not everyone is interested in pure monetary gains.

it's late (or early, depending on your perspective), and i have no desire to have a debate when one party is effectively debating something else entirely. 'night to you all, and have fun arguing in circles.

Jinkies · Aug 03, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

ah, so you've arbitrarily adding the price of zkeys into the mix.

here's a newsflash for you: the people who will engage as the "client" have no interest in the points, nor the supposed value of the zkeys. otherwise, those people would've either used the keys themselves, or sold them for the gold. the "clients" are interested in getting the drops. this is economically beneficial, because the "clients" would've probably BOUGHT those keys at 4k each, and are getting double the benefits for their investment. clearly, they are not being victimized.

the people who would engage as the "provider" are interested only in the points. they, like the "clients", probably bought those keys at 4k each, and are also gaining double the benefits for their investment. clearly, they are not being victimized either; and judging by how the "clients" are also benefiting, the "providers" are definitely not being abusive.

you've reasoning is only sound only if you completely mistook the motives for engaging in this arrangement in the first place, which you've done so. clearly, you do not understand nor appreciate the fact that not everyone is interested in pure monetary gains.

it's late (or early, depending on your perspective), and i have no desire to have a debate when one party is effectively debating something else entirely. 'night to you all, and have fun arguing in circles.

Your reasoning is sound only if you mistook the motives the majority of the players have for entering this engagment in the first place. You assume everyone in GW is smart, and that there are no stupid people who might have otherwise been victomized, I know it has already happend in the majority of the cases. You also assume there are alot of people who really want to throw all their money away in such a.. imo.. stupid manner. I'm pretty sure people wanting to get rid of money would just open z chest themselves.. and get title or give thir money to their friends. It is late i agree so I am off to bed too.

Div · Aug 03, 2009, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

there are a host of logical fallicies in your post.

To elaborate on the logical fallacies, that is how the zaishen chest works. Or in fact, that is how any gambling works. If you've taken any sort of probability, you would know that the expected value of the return is going to be lower than what you pay initially for these gambling activities, which means you're operating on a loss every time you gamble.

The zaishen service is actually doubling your expected value of return, but that doesn't make it higher than the cost of the key because of the nature of the gambling system guild wars has set up. The only reason to open the chest is for the title. If you're thinking about making money off the chest consistently, then good luck with that. I would suggest some more schooling first.

As long as the original post is, I don't see how this isn't simply a baseless QQ thread.

Cacheelma · Aug 03, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Someone needs to go back to school. Just because you got lucky 1 time doesnt mean many other people have, My math results do not lie. If you cannot accept the fact that the odds of winning do not meet with the amount of money you are likely to put into it then there is nothing more I can do to help you. Just remeber I was trying to be on your side, so flame me because you got lucky. w/e

Please tell me: Which kind of gambling has the odds of winning that does MEET with the amount of money you are likely to put in?

Not counting the times when you get lucky (as you stated above) of course.

Maybe I should go back to school myself. If you ignore the "luck" factor, what would be the factor that causes you to "win" or "lose" in gambling? Enlighten me, o wise one.

Stats? Please.

fowlero · Aug 03, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

One party wants and gets 2x the points.

One party wants and gets 2x the drops.

Seems fine to me, don't like it don't use it.

beanerman_99 · Aug 03, 2009, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Seems to be that the Title point seeker is the one who is basically ripping themselves off. This is what basically happens:

1) They pay 4k for a key
2) they find someone to go with them to chest
3) they take a 2nd key from other player
4) they open chest with both keys
5) they leave so other player gets the drops

How does this make any sense? That title you are so proud of does NOTHING to change your gameplay. This seems utterly preposterous to me. So in my mind the one giving the service is the one that is completely on the short end of the stick here. They just spent 4k on absolutely nothing. Want to max a title? Good lord there are cheaper ones than this one!

Ate of DK · Aug 03, 2009, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Shut down the Xunlai Tournament House permanently and make sure that Zaishen Keys can not be traded and must be earned on your own account. Lower the title max rank a bit. Anet should have done that from the start offcourse... now it's too late and we have plenty of epic losers buying ranks that mean nothing. But since I don't really care I can only smile.

Dzjudz · Aug 03, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Seems to me that everyone understands what the OP is saying, but it's the OP that doesn't understand what the rest of us are saying.

Shasgaliel · Aug 03, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Seems to me that everyone understands what the OP is saying, but it's the OP that doesn't understand what the rest of us are saying.

QFT. After posts from today I have the same impression

Cab Tastic · Aug 03, 2009, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Seems to me that everyone understands what the OP is saying, but it's the OP that doesn't understand what the rest of us are saying.

This sums it up quite nicely

moriz · Aug 03, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

if anything, i think the OP has an ulterior motive: he sells zkeys, and this "service" effectively cuts his clientèle by half; only half as many keys for either party are needed to fulfill what they want.

i'll repeat what i said: you seem to be completely (and i mean, COMPLETELY) incapable of realizing that people are NOT doing this for pure monetary gains. you might find it hard to believe, but many of us see no need to chase after a virtual currency.

Chico · Aug 03, 2009, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Lol. It is not a scam, it is *usually* a bad deal to use these "services".
Player A likes to gamble, letting player B open the chest he get's 2X the gamble on a good drop. Player A could get lucky drops or crappy drops. It is still a gamble and one that's designed (aren't they all) to make you loose on the long run.